Téma: Chybí regulace podtlaku u Viraga 1100
14.2.2019 v 13:44
Zkusím to s mým dotazem a prosím o pomoc či informaci kde to načíst.
Mám 2 dotazy, souvisí spolu.
Pořídil jsem si Virago 1100
1. u cívek je senzor podtlaku - jediné co jsem o něm vyčetl jeto, že ovlivňuje předstih při startování nic jiného ?
2. pod levou ledvinou u mého Viraga není nic, tedy celý regulátor nějaký odborník odmontoval a zahodil, hadičky co sem šli zaslepil. Motocykl zatím ladím, běží, nyní budu dělat synch karburátorů, právě jsem je vyčistil a vyměnil ventilek - pravý tekl.
Pokud to nesouviselo s chybějící regulací podtlaku. díky Michal

Chybí regulace podtlaku u Viraga 1100

14.2.2019 v 14:10 | Nahoru | #1
1. Senzor ovlivňuje předstih při startování a nepatrně i při prudké akceleraci. Ale při ní je jeho vliv zanedbatelný.
2. Buď rád. Ten eko hambál každému doporučuju zahodit co nejdál, je to jen kurvítko a balastní zátěž. Takhle máš místo na pár užitečných věcí - lékárničku, náhradní svíčky nebo lanka, knoty na lepení bezdušovek a podobně.

Chybí regulace podtlaku u Viraga 1100

14.2.2019 v 16:57 | Nahoru | #2
No nebol by som myslím taký jednoznačný,že to je zbytočné......Napr. starý Harley má VOES

What does it do, and how?
Briefly, the VOES is a device to control the ignition advance - this is necessary to avoid detonation. Real detonation can destroy your engine - you can read about it here. Knowing about deto will help you understand the VOES function.
Now, low vacuum (the term "low vacuum" describes a state in which pressure in the intake tract is relatively closer to normal atmospheric pressure) is not what causes detonation, but low vacuum is an indicator of conditions that lead to detonation. We can use it to tell us to change the situation, by increasing our RPMs for instance (with a downshift, which increases the vacuum), or rolling off the throttle (which reduces our speed), or an electronic ignition can use the low vacuum to operate a switch to tell the black box to change the ignition parameters.

And that is what the VOES does - it detects high vacuum and tells the black box to advance the timing.

The VOES is connected by a hose to a fitting on the intake manifold or carburetor. Inside the VOES is a diaphragm, a spring, and a set of electrical contacts. The switch has only two positions: on, and off, and they are selected by vacuum through the hose pulling the diaphragm up and turning the switch ON, or the spring pushing it back to OFF.

The switch selects one of two ignition maps in the black box - there is no in-between; it's either OFF, and the timing is retarded, or it is ON with the timing advanced. The normal (default) position is OFF/RETARDED. That is the position you want for starting, acceleration, and high-load operations like going up a hill in a gear that's too high. It is also the position you want it to go to if the switch fails or the vacuum hose breaks or leaks.

When a measured amount (more on that later) of vacuum is applied to the switch the diaphragm lifts, turning the switch ON, which switches the black box to the advance curve. When the vacuum drops again, the spring pushes the diaphragm back down, and the switch returns to OFF, its default position. There are only two positions, ON or OFF, and there are only two ignition maps (in the Harley box), retarded or advanced. (There. I've said that twice now, and I might say it again just to make sure everybody understands, since I just know you're not taking notes.)

Are there different VOES settings for different bikes?
Yes. Think about it. The heavier the bike and the smaller the engine in relation to the bike's weight, the wider you will have to open the throttle to develop or hold the speed you want without downshifting. That's the formula for detonation. The vacuum level will be dropping waaaay down and the ignition needs to be retarded. Make the bike lighter or increase the engine size or downshift and you won't have to open the throttle so far to get the power you want - the vacuum will stay higher, and the ignition can stay advanced.
What that means is that the VOES for a bagger will be set to advance the ignition at a stronger vacuum level (that's a higher number of inches of mercury) than the VOES on a Softtail that weighs over a hundred pounds less, even before you load the bagger up with the old lady and a week's worth of camping gear.

Take that bagger and gear; they're at a traffic light on the way out of town. Sitting there idling the throttle is nearly closed, so the vacuum is strong - a high number, so the spark is advanced at idle - about 30 degrees if you use a Crane Hi4 ignition with the advance curve selector set in the middle.

Now roll the throttle open to pull away and the vacuum drops. The RPMs are still low and they build slowly because of the weight, so vacuum stays low. The VOES, responding to the low vacuum, switches OFF, retarding the timing to about 10 degrees (again, Crane Hi4) while still at idle speed. As RPMs build and enough vacuum develops, the ignition throws in more advance - by 3,000 RPM with the throttle rolled off enough to hold that speed, you'll see about 35 degrees of advance. The Crane box will allow even more advance - with a steady throttle (high vac) at 4,800 RPM you'll see nearly 40 degrees of advance. You don't want the bagger's ignition to advance too soon, though, and induce detonation.

Now let's have some 130 pound chick on an FXR pull away from that light. Her engine's not going to require full throttle to pull away smartly, and even if she gives it full throttle the RPMs will build fast, developing vacuum quickly. For that bike we can set the VOES to go to full advance at a pretty low level of suck, and the VOES will quickly advance the timing.

Keep this in mind:
The VOES is a vacuum advance. The default position for the ignition is RETARDED. Some people think that means the curve is inferior somehow, but not so. The engine runs just fine on the RETARDED advance curve; think of it as the normal operating parameter. It is designed to avoid detonation and still give good performance. And when operating conditions are right to avoid deto (like cruising along on level ground with steady throttle) then the VOES tells the ignition to advance, which makes for a more efficient fuel burn. That gives you better mileage, cleaner exhaust, better overall driveability at part-throttle operation, sweeter farts, more muscles, more hair and all-around irresistability to women. There is no significant downside to the VOES unless you are searching for the maximum grunt out of your engine, and are willing to play tag with detonation to get it.

Understand this: Vacuum is a state of air pressure below normal atmospheric pressure, which is 14.7 pounds per square inch. 14.7PSI will push a column of mercury 29.9 inches up a tube. Vacuum is measured in inches of mercury below that figure. That is, when you see a figure like 7 inches of vacuum, that means the atmospheric pressure in the source of the measurement has been reduced enough that the column of mercury will only be 22.9 inches high .
When the engine is off there is 14.7 psi (normal atmospheric pressure) pressure in the intake tract - that is NO vacuum at all.

Now, let's keep the throttle plate completely closed and pull a piston to the bottom of its stroke. That'll develop low pressure (that is, vacuum) in the intake tract; right? The VOES is hooked up to that tract and it senses the vacuum and clicks ON. Until some air can get in the vacuum will stay there. So now let's open the throttle a little bit - air rushes in, fills the vacuum and the VOES switches to OFF.

Now let's start the motor. That pulls the piston down real quick, which develops a momentary vacuum in the tract before air coming in past the throttle plate fills the vacuum. Have two pistons doing it at a high rate of speed and you wind up with a pretty constant state of vacuum there - it actually does fluctuate, but it averages out for our purposes. The faster they go the more air they are pumping out of the intake tract, which leads to a stronger (higher number of inches) vacuum. Your throttle controls how fast air gets in to fill it.

When the engine has a large throttle opening and low RPMs the intake vacuum is low. That's because the pistons aren't moving up and down real quick sucking the air out of the intake tract, and the atmospheric air has a big hole to flow through to fill the intake tract. Think about it - it does make sense.

So imagine what happens when you maintain a constant engine speed (which means a constant state of vacuum), but open the throttle wider, like when you're going up a hill or accelerating away from that traffic light. The hole through the carburetor just got bigger when you opened the throttle, which lets more air in, which lowers the vacuum. So low RPMs and a large throttle opening produce low vacuum.

Are big engines different?
Yes. Let's take Biker Bill, for example. Last month he dropped a brand-new S&S 113" Super Sidewinder into his bagger, and he switched the VOES off of his old 80" motor when he did. Now he's headed up Raton Pass with the OL on the back, and man, he's rollin'; that motor is sooo strong . . . About halfway up, BLAM! The top of a piston vaporizes and all the smoke comes out of his motor, 'cause detonation blew it up.
Here's what happened. On his old 80" motor he'd have had to open the throttle big-time to haul up that hill. The VOES would have responded to the low vacuum caused by the wide open throttle and gone to the RETARD map. But his big, strong new motor didn't require him to open the throttle wide to hold 70mph, so the ignition stayed at full advance and detonation merrily ate the top out of his piston. It ain't pretty. What he should have done was recalibrate the VOES to switch to the advance curve at a higher vacuum level (that's more inches of Hg, for those who still don't quite get the idea that the higher the number the stronger the vacuum is sucking, and the longer the ignition stays retarded.)

Can I recalibrate my VOES?
Yes, and it's easy to do, but none of the manuals tell you how. I will.

What's more difficult is figuring out what amount of suck ought to operate the switch. I'm not going to tell you that because sure as hell if you screw it up (or if I'm wrong; like that could happen . . .) and you grenade your motor you're gonna be pissed at me. And bikers, being like they are and everything, you wouldn't be happy calling a lawyer to sue me. Oh, no, you'd be on my porch with a ball bat in your hand or something. So you figure out that part.

What I will do is tell you that the stock FXR switch works at about 3.5 to 4.5 inches as I recall, and baggers at around 5 to 6. Now that I have an S&S 107" motor in my FXRT I reset the VOES to 7" and it seems to work for me. Here's a tip: If you get intermittent pinging on acceleration, and if switching to better gas doesn't help, try recalibrating your VOES to retard the timing at a higher vacuum number before you start going crazy doing other, expensive, stuff.

Here's what you're gonna do. You'll to need a vacuum pump, like a Mighty-Vac and an electrical meter.

1 reakcí na tento příspěvek Chybí regulace podtlaku u Viraga 1100

14.2.2019 v 19:48 | Nahoru | #3
Woodie, dnes si zistil, že existuje ctrl+?

1 reakcí na tento příspěvek (reakce na) Chybí regulace podtlaku u Viraga 1100

14.2.2019 v 20:27 | Nahoru | #4
hycomat> Nie, ale zistil som,že stále existujú ľudia,čo by to pracne prepisovali....

1 reakcí na tento příspěvek (reakce na) Chybí regulace podtlaku u Viraga 1100

14.2.2019 v 21:04 | Nahoru | #5
Woodie: A co jsi tím elaborátem chtěl říct? Podle mě jsi nepochopil nomichalovy dotazy nebo mou odpověď.

1 reakcí na tento příspěvek (reakce na) Chybí regulace podtlaku u Viraga 1100

15.2.2019 v 13:46 | Nahoru | #6
1100Virago> No je to dosť možné,že som to nepochopil, nebolo by to prvý krát, ja som len napísal,že nemusí byť všetko kurvítko ako ty píšeš...V tom elaboráte ktorý som (ako tu správne niekto napísal skopíroval)uviedol je uvedené ako vpýva podtlak v sacom potrubí na predzápal a tým pádom napr. aj detonačné spalovanie...
A niečo podobné som si myslel,že niekto zdemontoval s tej Suzuki, či čo to je...A teda,že toto to mohlo robiť....
Ale ak som to nepohopil, tak soráč...

(reakce na) Chybí regulace podtlaku u Viraga 1100

15.2.2019 v 18:15 | Nahoru | #7
Woodie: Jo, takže nedorozumění.

nomichal se v bodě 1 ptá na senzor podtlaku a to je to, o čem jsi poslal ten článek. Ten mu ale nechybí (aspoň já to tak pochopil). A Virago se bez něj opravdu dokáže obejít - například jednotky zapalování od Ignitechu vstup pro tohle čidlo nemají a funguje to s nimi dobře. Jen startování může být obtížnější kvůli většímu předstihu - startér dostává větší rány a zkrátí to životnost volnoběžky.

V bodě 2 jde o chybějící "regulátor podtlaku". Ve skutečnosti se jedná o ventil systému AIS řízený podtlakem. AIS pouští do výfuků čistý vzduch, aby se podpořilo lepší dohořívání směsi a snížily se emise. Ventil má ale za určitých režimů přisávání vzduchu vypnout, aby motor do výfuku nestřílel. Problém je v tom, že jak systém stárne a ztrácí těsnost, stává se to zdrojem problémů a ke střílení to naopak spíše přispívá. Navíc to obsahují jen některé verze Viraga například z USA nebo Švýcarska, ale většina modelů je bez toho ventilu i pár překážejících trubek navíc. Takže se nic moc nestane, když se to odstraní a zaslepí i u těch ostatních.
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